Curse

jayson · Dec 22, 2012, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Mike OBrien:

Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 -- no VP ever, year after year -- and it wasn't that fun. It was stagnant.

Do people agree with this? Was getting to level 20 not enough for most players? I know fom my personal experience, getting to 20 was only a small portion of the interest that Guild Wars had for me. The overall story, the monsters, the weapons and skins and the mix of classes and skills is what has kept me playing since the start. To me new stories and new lands would get me to purchase a new expansion.

Extra food for thought:
I know that a lot of people will immediately jump on the "too many skills" wagon but if there was ever an expansion or new campaign, could players accept all of the new lands with existing skills? What about not having new classes? Could people do without that?

Sofonisba · Dec 22, 2012, 03:10 AM // 03:10

I don't agree at all about the game being stagnant. The only reason I stopped playing GW was because I was burnt out. Played for a good 4 years with no break. It's the first--and the longest--MMO I've played. And I'm back now after a few years' break.

As for too many skills, it's difficult to judge since I was playing since about a month after launch. So, I naturally only had Proph at first, was gradually introduced to the skills in Factions and Nightfall. I never had a problem, but the noob areas do a great job introducing how skills work, I thought.

It could have been ANet were the ones who had a hard time keeping the skills and profs balanced with more and more combos available.

I'd most likely buy a new xpac to GW if there was one on offer. But I'd DEFINITELY do it with new classes, new character creation, or even new skills.

Schmerdro · Dec 22, 2012, 05:00 AM // 05:00

One important thing to always keep in mind is that developers are HORRIBLE at reviewing their own game(s) for two reasons:

1. They spend most of their time developing their game(s) instead of actually playing. They are too blinded by "how things should be" (which they think they know because they made the game) to see "how things actually are." Sometimes games can turn out completely different from what developers expected and it's a real shame when they don't even see it themselves.

2. They poured too much of their time, energy, and hope into the game and can not objectively judge it. There's just too much emotional investment that can easily block out any balanced and logical reasoning. It's like asking a parent to judge their child, of course they are going to be biased.

And this isn't a stab at Arena-Net, it applies to all developers that ever made a video-game.

Now, Guild Wars was based on the simple premise that people should be playing a video-game because it's fun, not because it's their job. It threw away the absurd concept of grinding for pixels and simply focused on being fun, strategic, and accessible. There was still some optional grind that was available (PvP titles, Treasure Hunter, Wisdom etc.) but they all had a minimal effect and most were purely cosmetic. I really liked this system, I thought it was brilliant. But the only thing that made it stagnant was the lack of updates such as WiK and WoC. I don't need new skills or new professions (and really, I don't think there are any roles left that can filled), I would just like some new, interesting enemies and situations.

Also, would it really be that hard to make the WiK and WoC quests repeatable? The Battle for LA is tons of fun.

**cosyfiep** · Dec 22, 2012, 06:04 AM // 06:04

an expansion without new professions and new skills=sorrows furnace---probably the BEST expansion they did!!! would I PAY for something like they H3ll YEAH!!!
I dont need new classes or skills...new maps and new quests are great (heck look at how well/poorly wik and wic did).....what would bring people back in::::

THE REALMS OF THE OTHER GODS!!!

we have been bitcching about that since....2005!

I have been playing almost daily for over 8 years, LOVE the game (HATE gw2 cant get into it, has no replay for me, etc...lost what I felt gw IS).... I am STILL making new characters and playing thru the stories....I am not a fan of leveling so getting to 20 fast and getting on with the questing/missions is what I love about this game.

Yeah the devs need to step back and see what is going on in the world outside of their little bubble...people are still playing the original guildwars, still buying it and still getting slots and such....and NOT just for the pathetic 'rewards' it offers in the other game either.

more content YES!!!!!!!!!!!~~~!!!

Mintha Syl · Dec 22, 2012, 10:10 AM // 10:10

First of all I greatly agree with you all.
But for the quote I didn't quite understand sorry <.< What does VP mean? What was the context of the sentence?

JONO51 · Dec 22, 2012, 10:17 AM // 10:17

They're forgetting that skills, skill balances and the addition of new skills pretty much made up their "progression" though. Even a casual player would have been through tens of builds for themselves, and many for each hero, each time making them stronger/faster/better.

GW2 has a much harder task to capture that same sort of progression since half the bar is locked down and the other half has a very limited single class skill pool to pull from. I know why they wanted to go that route (easier to balance) but it also stripped a lot of fun from max level play.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Dec 22, 2012, 10:29 AM // 10:29

leveling in many MMO's is important, but in GW its more important what to do with your lvl 20 (attribute points and skills and such)

"too many skills" is something i actually like, as i then can make more different chars with same profs, and change my builds everytime, keep trying stuff til you're satisfied (which i still am not)

new skills and profs? no thx, we have enough profs, AND we have the possibility to use 2 of em, and change our 2ndary
as for skills, yes.... but then old skills in a new skin (new functionality), but only skills which really are worthless for regular pve, as i dont care about farming (look at shadow form, i'd like it becoming stronger and better to use for normal pve, but it gets changed/nerfed cuz of farmers)

some more pve-only skills would be fun, as we can only have 3 on our bars, but with more we could make more builds

and i'd love more pve splits, so that pvp can stay pvp, and pve can be pve in its own way

anyway, no need to lvl more, gives us an opportunity to find more goals, and gives us the space to build our chars sooner than training all way to lvl 60 or even 80

btw, whats "VP" ?

new expansions really would do alot to me, as GW is the only game i keep playing
i cant find myself to buy GW2 for many reasons (got a few more in the last few days), and playing PWi really starts to bore me to death (having low lvls compared to almost all nice people i found there, so being behind a huge lot)

i'd love to see new areas made from the old non-used parts on the maps, and doesnt need to be a bridge from GW to GW2, imo... people should also need a reason to follow GW2 expansions

jayson · Dec 22, 2012, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

First of all I greatly agree with you all.
But for the quote I didn't quite understand sorry <.< What does VP mean? What was the context of the sentence?

VP stands for "vertical progression"
The quote was taken from a thread in GW2Guru discussing vertical progression versus horizontal progression and the benefits and drawbacks of both. So it was Mike OBrien who claims that the very game he helped to create eventually became stagnant because players couldn't go past level 20.

Now the way I see it if players were at level 20 (or the equivalent of what that represents) from the start, we would've had far more content to play with all along with all mobs set to play against parties of 8 right out of Old Ascalon. The acquiring of skills and attribute points could've been what players worked for to increase their build diversity instead of worrying about getting to level 20 and leaving portions of content behind because it no longer offered a challenge. Plus people would still be able to acquire weapons and armor skins. All cosmetic of course

Anet eventually added in the armors from all lower level areas to fill out armor selections. Just smart thinking.

Quote:

From raspberry jam in the GW2 thread.
But vertical progression isn't growth. It's apparent growth that doesn't actually do anything but count up stats that is put against other counted up stats...

Well said.

Mintha Syl · Dec 22, 2012, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Ok I understand and agree, and also agree with teh above quote from other forum.

From how I see it, as someone already said, vertical progression makes a game look more like a chore. You log in and say: meh I don't really feel like doing this thing, but I have to lvl up so...let's do this even if totally unfun and more like an unpayed job.
And at the same time you can't really say because you don't have to level up you have nothing to do...like all the hard to die players show. This game adds a whole new layer. In leveling up games you just spend ages getting to cap and geared up...and after that what? You have nothing to do till the cap is increased again. Which is stagnant-gaming. And for grind lovers, gw has that too as optional, just you're not obliged to grind, you can't just log whenever and do what you enjoy instead of constatly having to run after something.
I do play Aion, and I felt much relieved when I hit lvl cap, cause I thought I was finally free to enjoy the full content and still do only things I find fun...but I didn't consider in a game like that gearing up takes just as long and it's another chore, and until you do that still you aren't free. In guild wars I've never felt compelled to do anything unfun so that I could get to something else...safe maybe a few annoying coops which are fast anyway so w/e.

And honestly I don't get why people on gw wants to et to 20 quickly leaving content behind...I even feel ascalon with all those charrs and party limitation, if done at the right level, is quite challenging and fun, sure more challenging then the rest of prophecies, so why rush to look for challenges?

Sure it became a bit stagnant cause of the lack of updates, but it has nothing to do with game concept and mechanics. I'm sure sad they abandoned sorrow's furnace, that's a great place and sure I would have liked something like it, or having it expanded...all that story for nothing. Now that you made me think about it, i'll have to run it again lol.

/longwalloftextsorry

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 22, 2012, 03:02 PM // 15:02

It's only stagnant because there was a lack of stepping stones from pve to pvp. Anet probably underestimated the "pve mentality" and how challenging it would be to break peoples habits and stepping out of your comfort zone. In a complex system as gw is it might not even be possible, but IMO clearly too much focus was given to the pure pve side of the game on the one side and the wishes of the top pvp segment on the other.

**cosyfiep** · Dec 22, 2012, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I never quite got the need to move over to pvp either...I just dont enjoy beating the snog out of other people=not fun. I enjoy doing missions, quests and such, fighting things along the way.

If the game was stagnant it is due to the people who created it making it thus. I enjoy the game STILL...I do enjoy playing the lower levels areas (not as much as the higher ones), and when the made factions and nightfall they took this into consideration--there is much more content past leveling up in both chapters than the first. Eye was completely made for high levels....so where is the need for 'vp' and gaining higher levels?????
Many parts of the original game are geared for max level characters, if they just make more of these then no one really cares that level 20 is max.

(I think the reason that people want to be max level is the same reason kids all want to be grown-ups: its much more fun to be at the max level and play than still having leveling to do. Think about it, when you were in grade school, you wanted to be in high school, while in high school you wanted to be in college....in college, well, you just wanted to be 21 at which point you could do anything you wanted to. Now lots of people enjoy being a kid, while many people would rather be an adult).

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 22, 2012, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I never quite got the need to move over to pvp either...I just dont enjoy beating the snog out of other people=not fun. I enjoy doing missions, quests and such, fighting things along the way.

On the pve bit I agree with you completely. There is no need for a level grind, the natural desire for "achievement" can also be met through expanding storyline, areas, new skills, monsters etc. I guess this would mean "horizontal progression" as opposed to "vp". (Which I originally read as "vice president" - I guess you get a little bit nerdier every day.)

But there is no wonder if people find pve stagnant over time, it lies in the definition of pve. There are only so many ways the monsters can pose a challenge without making quests impossible. Once the "code" is cracked it becomes boring. In technical terms pve is not a complex system, it is perhaps advanced with difficult monsters but they don't adapt. In pvp you have a complex system where the environment consisting of other people adapt to your actions. Players don't let you "farm" them like the banshees in the underworld.

Of course I can not easily convince you that pvp is fun and you are wrong because your mind is set and you are dealing with self-deception. Without writing a thesis on the human psyche I hope it can be grasped that the human mind is exceptionally good at defending pre-set beliefs even when faced with overwhelming evidence of being in error. (Try using logic with a religious believer, conspiracy theorist or doomsday prophet.)

You say pvp is not fun (for you) and that "you don't enjoy beating the snog out of other people". First of all I don't think you have done much pvp at all. Second I don't think you have done much snogbeating the times you have tried it either. Mind you I am not aiming at taunting your skills in pvp. But I pick up the scent of someone who is full of the aforementioned pre-set beliefs and a lack of experience. If you DID beat the snog out of people you WOULD find pvp fun. Just as beating monsters make pve fun. If a mission is so hard that you can't beat it it's disheartening and unless you figure out "the code" you eventually give up. Fortunately pve lets you do just that quite easily since the monsters don't adapt. When you lose in pvp the same effect sets in but naturally makes it so much easier to give up. And again since the human mind is built to protect yourself it might not tell you that you did bad, but might give you excuses to explain just why you failed. "I am REALLY good at pvp but I CHOOSE not to because it's not fun", "I would pvp but I can't find good enough people to play with", "The rewards aren't good enough, I prefer the uw speed clears". These are all excuses but they are potent ones because they are internally constructed to protect your self-image. Naturally very few people are willing to admit that they are excuses and if you confront people they can get quite hostile. Naturally.

Second on your inexperience. The fact that you mention "beating the snog out of others" as the only factor of pvp tells me you are missing 50% of the equation. It's not JUST beating others, but it's very much a cooperative element too. Having a good team, finding good synergy with others, being able to get along with on a personal level and finding people who share the same commitment to improve over time are at least as important as the satisfaction of snogbeating others. I bet many of the pve addicts have social issues as well. After all computer games are dominated by introverts or people who prefer the safety of a virtual environment to the harsh social realities of "real life". Choosing the comfort of fighting familiar monsters over the challenges of dealing with other living people in pvp.

But we are social creatures. We do want recognition from our peers, in fact I'd say it's the ONLY motivating factor in peoples lives. Everything we do from birth to death is related to fitting in, following norms and morals, trying to be respected or seen. Again pve provides this comfort zone, you can brag about your achievements but there is no one to call you out on your mistakes in the process. Pvp can be quite unforgiving. Many people can't or won't deal with this. It's natural, but I'm trying to argue it's not good. You SHOULD expose yourselves to the uncertainty of pvp because pve will eventually become stagnant. To keep the game "fun" you need to be challenged.

My argument is that anet put too little emphasis on such "stepping stones" that could lure people out of the comfortable pve to the fun of pvp. I'd wager 99% of gw population never experienced the true fun in pvp because they gave up before getting there. I'm not blaming the players here, I don't expect people to jump straight from uwsc to pvp uw(heroes ascent). Those who did probably lost all desire for pvp forever and crawled back to pve or quit the game for good. Areas such as alliance battles, costume brawl or perhaps team arenas were good stepping stones. They were neglected and ridiculed from both top and bottom. Big mistake.

I should know for I was a pver once too. I had a friend who left for pvp and I dared not follow. Using voice communication seemed scary since I'm a bit older and didn't really like the idea of being yelled at by teenagers. I would routinely get called "noob" and such in RA and couldn't find a group in HA. Sound familiar? Probably. So after years and years of stagnant pve I finally dared to join a gvg guild, vented up and had the most fun in a computer game to date. The two worlds just aren't comparable. From someone who has "transcended" both worlds let me tell you: pve is static and boring while pvp is challenging and fun. On top of that it also teaches you something about human interaction, human psychology and true improvement both in terms of gaming skills, teamwork and self-development.

Geezez christ I can't believe I wrote all this. Merry Christmas everyone! And if you are a muslim: Happy holiday!

Mintha Syl · Dec 22, 2012, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Ok I think in your long post there's much of presumption (no offense meant eh), since your whole long logic can be resumed in "if you don't like pvp it's cause you're bad at it" and "pve is running away from life and people". And you said yourself someone else being wrong just because she doesn't share your way to think, which would imply your thoughts are absolute and there can be no other truth. That looks like a religion to me.
Let me tell you this. Some people may not like pvp just cause they don't. It's like someone coming to you and saying: I don't like oranges. And you saying: that's probably because you have only eaten a few of them and probably you haven't even eaten them the right way. You don't accept someone not liking the taste of oranges.
For me, personally, pve is a wonderful travel through amazing landscapes, following stories, and having the challenge of fights (yes, pve can be challenging if you want it to be) while possibly cooperating, strategizing and geenrally having fun with other people. While pvp, for me, it's a group of persons running around in a small area with not much to see in, playing dog and cat, and I see it much more as going against other people then with. I find absolutely nothing interesting or fun in doing such a thing. And if you want to add some social analysis here...I find the great pleasure due to beating another person can be pretty puerile. For me fun is going through something, not humiliating someone and feeling "pro".

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

(I think the reason that people want to be max level is the same reason kids all want to be grown-ups: its much more fun to be at the max level and play than still having leveling to do. Think about it, when you were in grade school, you wanted to be in high school, while in high school you wanted to be in college....in college, well, you just wanted to be 21 at which point you could do anything you wanted to. Now lots of people enjoy being a kid, while many people would rather be an adult).

This I can really understand, but I see it more applicable in games where there's an actual leveling progress. But in this game, you just get to max without even noticing, you just do your things and in a glimpse you're there. So...well I guess tat's still what you said but taken do drastic limits :P

Sofonisba · Dec 22, 2012, 10:30 PM // 22:30

And I liked them both

PvE because of putting skills and a team together, experimenting, reaching goals like vanquishing, HM dungeons, greens farming, etc.

PvP because of putting skills and/or a team together, experimenting, winning or losing, always learning.

Schmerdro · Dec 22, 2012, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote: